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Being relatively new to this kind of discussion (faced it all alone), I wonder how many R are successful, how many fails, how can you see or spot where a R is headed.

The first R between me and my wife was obviously fake, even if we married 7 years after her betrayal, issues were swept under the carpet of trauma on my end and she never addressed her issues.

So I know how at least one fake R looks like.

Now she is trying to change, and this time is me the least interested party, I wonder if my detachment already makes this a fake R (I am not even truly trying to, I just mind my own life, don't hate her, appreciate that she is working on herself, but care very little, compared to what I feel I should).

What's your experience?

Hi BFTS - My experience is that there is an ongoing and....pretty inevitable deterioration of trust. Even if you want to trust - suspicion pops up at any likely opportunity and it really surprises me even after 10 years. And I recently found out....I was right not to trust him, he still has an EA going on long distance with the same person and exchanging gifts and endearments, shit like that....I've caught him in lies about it. But the next part that happen is the end of romantic love. You make still be fond of each others, or care, but....you're not in love any more. Love is a beast that needs feeding and cheating starves the beast. Even EAs starve the beast. So that's my ultimate end. For me, recon is a financial thing - it's about health and money - I have significant health issues and I don't have enough to live on my own, and no family or anyone else I can live with. So, right now I'm stuck. If I had the money, I'd move out. As I say, I care for him, I love him as a friend, but the romantic love is long gone and I think that's the major casuality of cheating....the end of trust and romantic love - you have to have some ideals or look up to someone to have some sense of romantic love. When you don't have that....well....what you have maybe, is a friend. At the end of life that may be good enough. I wish there were more, but frankly.....I wish there were more with somebody else, LOLOL. I wish I'd bailed years ago and that is why I am SUCH a big proponent of bailing when you're still reasonably young and healthy and could have prospects. DON'T STICK AROUND, RECON IS A TRAP. For most people, it's a trap.

I know you asked this question rather broadly, but I think it’s fair to say that you are in false R because your wife is still lying to you, won’t answer your questions completely, and has been cheating on you for the entirety of your relationship.

As I’ve said in one of your previous threads, your wife is love-bombing you, which is very typical behavior for cheaters who feel that they are losing control over their betrayed spouses. As soon as you let your guard down and she gets comfortable again, she will go back to her usual attitude of contempt and disrespect.

Being relatively new to this kind of discussion (faced it all alone), I wonder how many R are successful, how many fails, how can you see or spot where a R is headed.

I stopped trying to diagnose or armchair quarterback anyone’s M a while ago.

Because I warned one member about red flags, told him he should leave — he came back to tell me he was happily R’d and I was wrong. Another case, I really thought things were going great, and the A went underground, the WS was simply great at telling the BS what he wanted to hear.

So again, because my vantage point is so limited, I tend to tell folks to heal themselves and to keep their head on a swivel (at least early on).

My ‘real’ R is about ten years in and I am as happy as I have ever been in life.

R for me is simply M at this point.

The same tools we used to rebuild us, we still use every single day in our relationship (honesty, kindness, no games).

However, it was probably two years before I thought R was even possible, and then another year to fully re-invest and aim for vulnerability again.

The factors are many and varied for R.

Over the long haul, if a BS can only see their spouse as a WS, or piles up resentments, not much hope there.

And if the WS only provides lip service versus real changes, that offers problems if they fail to cope or turn away from the M again at the first sign of trouble.

I’ll never be happy the A happened, I’m very comfortable hating it — but I am happy the full reset allowed me to approach life from a more…selfish base. By truly going for what I want and need, I became a healthier partner (versus burying my feelings and hoping for the best in the old days).

I don’t know if any of my experience helps, but life is real and real good around my place.

I think I feel pretty much the same as you. I'm here. I appreciate the positive things about my H. If he left me, I wouldn't care about him. I wouldn't miss him.

I think BondJane nailed it. After the loss of trust, there's a loss of romantic love. I am not romantically in love with my H anymore. After 11+ years, I can pretty confidently say that I probably never will be again. He killed those feelings in me when he cheated. I don't think there's any getting them back.

I think we succeeded (so far, at least) because we both wanted R, because we both did our work.

I didn't commit to R until I saw myself living a good life whether I R'ed or D'ed.

I began with an attitude of 'I'm not going to let my W's fuckup ruin my life.'

I established/negotiated observable requirements for R, monitored compliance, and took steps to get back on track if we deviated (well, I took corrective steps when I deviated, because my W pretty much met requirements from the start).

*****

I think it was Claude Steiner, one of Eric Berne's followers, who came up with the idea that people live in scripts or counterscripts. A script is something we write for ourselves based on early experiences; a counterscript is the opposite. (Scripts People Live, Claude Steiner, available for free download if you look).

Berne's followers argue that many people try to cure themselves of dysfunctional script-driven behavior by doing the opposite, but that is likely to be as dysfunctional as following the script. Rather than doing the opposite, they assert that a person who wants to stop living their script should figure out what they want and go for that. For example, if you think you need _____ every day because of a screwed-up childhood decision, the cure is not to stop _____. Instead, the cure is to make mindful decisions each time you're faced with a decision to ______ not.

I certainly don't do that for every decision, but I do when I have to make a big decision. And deciding what to do with my life after being betrayed was the 2nd biggest choice I've ever had to make. So I started with realizing that I could live without my W and that I could not control the outcome.

*****

After being betrayed, I think the best attitude for a BS starts with me-me-me. Once you get that, you can fit your own wants in with other people's wants.

I think only those in the marriage can decide whether R is successful or not considering we are all so unique in our needs and desires from a marriage whether infidelity existed or not. A successful R or even marriage for one may look like a train wreck to another. For me, R was "successful" when I got to a place where I no longer questioned whether to stay or go. Also, when I can honestly say that if it were to end now, it wouldn’t be because of his cheating.

As for the need to "be in love" with your spouse for successful R, for me is nonsense. "In love" for me is not a sustainable emotion even before D DAy. The romance can ebb and flow and that’s normal for me. Simple nurturing love is the only constant I need.

After being betrayed, I think the best attitude for a BS starts with me-me-me. Once you get that, you can fit your own wants in with other people's wants.

That was probably the most important thing I acquired. Inner self, not selfishness but self centered, is healthy.

I know you asked this question rather broadly, but I think it’s fair to say that you are in false R because your wife is still lying to you, won’t answer your questions completely, and has been cheating on you for the entirety of your relationship.

I know it is true, I have to acknowledge she is trying (lately whenever we go she is openly declaring what she has done, is humiliating for her, she tells is painful but less painful to hear when I say it, so she fires her confession first). The lies are tricky, because she seems to truly have some emotional blockage of memories. She does tell untrue facts, but she corrects lately correct herself by saying "this is not how things went, why am I telling a different story?". Which is confusing but seems genuine (or she is an incredible actress, shocking if that's the case because I can always read her like an open book), she seems shocked by her own lying as it comes out automatically and she calls it out alone right after. Not yet sure if is a good sign or a deeper problem.

The couple therapist says she seems to have some genuine blockage, she went back to rebuild the timeline of her first betrayal in front of me, took a whole day but she found emails and messages to reconstruct it.

It seems she is putting some work, I can observe the behavior to see if it it will be consistent.
The fact that I do not care about R or not, I wonder if I can call it an R, because is unilateral from her, I have no attachment to it, so if I do not feel to participate I suppose is 'fake' as she is trying to recover her position in my life.

I think BondJane nailed it. After the loss of trust, there's a loss of romantic love. I am not romantically in love with my H anymore. After 11+ years, I can pretty confidently say that I probably never will be again. He killed those feelings in me when he cheated. I don't think there's any getting them back.

Jane, coco.
That is truly the thing I miss the most.
I never believed in love, I was always cynical thinking is a temporary dopamine hit that lasts 6-24 months then fades.
Then I experienced it, and it was not intoxicating, it was nourishing, pushes you to be better, to grow, it does not fade, it grows stronger, steady.

And it is one of the strongest feeling you can experience. No matter how strong, it is fragile if another person enters the picture it dies.
That's likely the biggest source of pain, because I knew that once lost it is gone.
I want to experience it again.

As for the need to "be in love" with your spouse for successful R, for me is nonsense. "In love" for me is not a sustainable emotion even before D DAy. The romance can ebb and flow and that’s normal for me. Simple nurturing love is the only constant I need.

I imagine that if the M is the goal then it is not necessary.
To me marriage always meant nothing, I personally saw it as an official confirmation of something that already existed, it was a formality. This did not change today, so to keep up the M is not my goal at all (we had it after her betrayal, to me is worthless because I was trying to resurrect something dead and I was in self denial).

Perhaps is a personal thing, I already said I did not believe in love. But it happened and it was more than sustainable, is way different from the usual "dopamine honeymoon" is as powerful and more clear in the same time, it does not fade, is consistent and growing.

Since I discovered I am capable of feeling that, that is what became the meaning of a relationship to me, is not something I want to deny in my life.

The romance can ebb and flow and that’s normal for me. Simple nurturing love is the only constant I need.

When I talk about romantic love, I'm not talking about that new relationship infatuation "in love" feeling. I'm talking about something I can't seem to put into words.

We had our ups and downs throughout our M. I was always able to keep my love for my H. I wanted to be with him, until he cheated. Now, I don't care about having him around. He just doesn't matter that much to me anymore.

When I talk about romantic love, I'm not talking about that new relationship infatuation "in love" feeling. I'm talking about something I can't seem to put into words.

We had our ups and downs throughout our M. I was always able to keep my love for my H. I wanted to be with him, until he cheated. Now, I don't care about having him around. He just doesn't matter that much to me anymore.

Exactly.
The infatuation often mistaken for "being in love" is a natural chemical high of endorphins (mainly dopamine) that is designed by nature to phase out most negatives in a fresh couple, paint everything about the other person in pink tones, hide flaws and promote generation of offspring (at least that's what nature designed it for).

A crush is not love, is just chemistry. You will feel that for cheating and affairs too, it's how our brain is designed. If you know what you are doing you can trigger it intentionally, is not even difficult.

Romantic love (which I did not believe existed, I was kind of cynical, turning all down to chemistry and biology in the past) is different, has clarity:

You can see the flaws of the other person, you accept them effortlessly, you show your own flaws, they get accepted. The relationship naturally promotes both partner's growth, is not an intentional effort, you feel the drive to improve it elevates.
Yes there are chemicals involved, but instead of "high - fading" cycle the same chemicals are renewed over and over, and it's a different cocktail, balancing the dopamine 'good feel' with other hormones that allow you to be present, not drugged.

Oversimplified not to write a wall of text: You can 'engineer' a dopamine crush on anyone (that's how seduction works), extreme examples are some psychopaths/sociopaths who perfect this into an art form to make friends / lovers dependent on them.

You cannot engineer "love" (overstatement, knowing the exact kind of chemicals is probably still possible, what I mean is 'not as easily' at least, and anyway it's extremely hard to maintain it over time, even if you can trigger it).

Then I experienced it, and it was not intoxicating, it was nourishing, pushes you to be better, to grow, it does not fade, it grows stronger, steady.

I think this is a pretty good explanation. In the beginning, my relationship with my H pushed me to be a better person. We wrote our own wedding vows, and a statement about that was in mine. I said I hoped that I could treat him as well as he treated me. 🫤

Now, I have no desire to be good to him for him. I have a desire to be a decent person so that my daily life isn't tense and miserable. I have no desire to be with my H. I have no sexual desire towards him at all anymore. (Although, that may be because I'm postmenopausal now. No point in sex if I can't make babies, biologically speaking. 🤷‍♀️)

I used to care if my H was gone too long when he ran an errand. Now, I don't care where he pr what he's doing unless I need something. I look forward to times when he or I travel without the other. I plan trips to see my children without my H. I am able to completely relax and enjoy myself on those trips. I don't look forward to coming home to my H.

I operate and think a lot like old wounds and so his response about healing yourself first is where I always stand.

Detachment is a positive place to be as a bs. It means that you can be objective.

However, I have read a lot of your posts and responses to other’s posts and I do not read detachment from you. I think your feelings about your wife has been fractured but you are very interested in her thoughts, struggles, and trying to evaluate her and the relationship.

There is nothing wrong with that, I think it’s natural. You want to make a decision about your future.

I think if you don’t know if you want a divorce (which I don’t read that you have fully decided that yet) that I would do nothing and focus on yourself. Do the things you want, when you want, and truly give the decision space.

Sometimes it’s helpful to say "I am going to just focus on myself for 6 months, allow her to do the same." And have check ins but don’t be overly attached to where she is or what she says. Because in all reality in a situation where you expect rapid evolution, and she is doing the activity needed, then see where that lands later rather than constant temperature checking to weigh in on a decision you aren’t ready to make. You will wear yourself out quickly. Probably already have.

There is simply a different between being detached and not feeing the love. I think your feelings for her are lost right now but the actual detachment is not happening. It’s okay to let go of it, and actually from a ws perspective, the detachment from bs is scary as hell. But it sure is motivating. In the end, she has to gain her own motivation and it’s okay if the source starts with knowing she is losing you and then realizing the work she is doing has made her more curious and engaged with her own self awareness. It’s her job to win you back from that detachment.

What I am hearing from you is more this:

I don’t have the feelings I think I should for my wife, but I feel like she doesn’t know that so I feel dishonest like I am giving her a false R" in reality, because you don’t know what you want you are trying to preserve all options, which is natural.

We don’t normally truly go from dday right into reconciliation. Reconciliation is actually a future process tied with deliberation after there has been time for recovery. Use this time as individual recovery and just let the relationship tread water. Be authentic with both of you needing this time. When more healing has occurred then you can begin truly weighing reconciliation. At that point, you start working on connection and feelings can reignite or maybe they won’t. Even in good marriages with no infidelity people go through different stages and those feelings can be lost and reignited to find them deeper than they were before.

Love as a feeling is something that has to be deliberately worked on to bring back, but it’s far easier to resurrect it when the foundation has been built again first. In this era she has to rebuild trust and the only way that starts to happen is she stands strong in working on her evolution and can communicate her new understanding, the ways she is practicing it, how she is changing her perceptions, etc.

At that point she makes a better candidate for reconciliation, and the work you put into the relationship will have more clarity and intent.

You are simply putting the cart before the horse and that’s why it feels dishonest to you.

[This message edited by hikingout at 5:37 PM, Tuesday, February 3rd]

There is simply a different between being detached and not feeing the love. I think your feelings for her are lost right now but the actual detachment is not happening. It’s okay to let go of it, and actually from a ws perspective, the detachment from bs is scary as hell. But it sure is motivating. In the end, she has to gain her own motivation and it’s okay if the source starts with knowing she is losing you and then realizing the work she is doing has made her more curious and engaged with her own self awareness. It’s her job to win you back from that detachment.

I like you are perceptive and can read between the lines.
I was detached when I "changed" and dropped my ptsd, past traumas etc. And she was instinctively in high alert.
I saw her trying so I allowed myself to open up a bit to her attempts with therapy, work, inquiring, confessions.

That's the moment were obviously I "abandoned" my detachment, temporarily.
And it is because she was the person I used to care for the most in the world.

The problem is, as that happens she turns into a "me, me, me" self centered, expecting validation, which are the same patterns that brought her to cheat in the first place.

I do not want a trauma bond, I want a person that can have a secure attachment or nothing.

You will wear yourself out quickly. Probably already have.

Exactly, you are sharp, in fact it did. It helped her to process some things and get in touch with some emotions. But I am not her therapist, nor should I be.
Result is in the later days I am feeling again detached and I frankly do not care at the moment (not walled off, just focusing on myself and my daughter).

I don’t have the feelings I think I should for my wife, but I feel like she doesn’t know that so I feel dishonest like I am giving her a false R" in reality, because you don’t know what you want you are trying to preserve all options, which is natural.

I write too much so it opens up to misunderstanding.

I don't love her anymore. I am not in love. The critical clue being I am now aware and receptive to other girls' attention, which for me is impossible when I am in love with someone.

Not that I feel attraction to the point I want to date or pursue them, I am still pretty selective, but I "feel it" I am not refractory any longer.

I am completely honest with her, I told her this, I told her we are not reconciled, I told her Reconciliation was false because she kept flirting or having affairs while we came back together, I told her I cannot stand her lies for 17 years straight and her swearing she is being honest now, but changing versions every time does not give me back any trust. And I told her she can pursue all men she like to, have random sex as much as she wants, she can resume her "being single while paired" as much as she wants, I don't care at all as long as she does not infect me with more STD.

I am going out alone, meeting people, women too. If it ever happens that I develop an interest for one, I will tell her, divorce and then pursue. It does not mean I am looking around for, I just live my life and rebuild it from zero for the third time since I met her.

I told her there can never be any R unless she completely kills that part of herself capable of infidelity and become a safe partner. So there is no false Reconciliation going on, because there is no Reconciliation at all right now. There is her wish to R, but I cannot agree to it unless I regain trust and respect.

They are both at near zero right now.

We don’t normally truly go from dday right into reconciliation. Reconciliation is actually a future process tied with deliberation after there has been time for recovery. Use this time as individual recovery and just let the relationship tread water. Be authentic with both of you needing this time. When more healing has occurred then you can begin truly weighing reconciliation. At that point, you start working on connection and feelings can reignite or maybe they won’t. Even in good marriages with no infidelity people go through different stages and those feelings can be lost and reignited to find them deeper than they were before.

That is where I failed the most. I wanted to believe I could have her back, like before, when she came back.
Her Infidelity was short lived, less than 3 months after we broke up, she rushed back to me because she knew I was seeing a ton of girls, and when she knew I dropped 11 for only one (polish like her) she panicked and tried to R.

And I swallowed it all like an idiot. Shame on me for that, I payed with everything I had built and planned to build for my life.

She burned me way too much for me to believe she can ever change.
I consider myself healed because I "left her" already, the only thing that reminds me of her existence is that I see her every day and she sleeps in my same bed.
She is just 'a woman' now, pretty, intelligent, with a ton of qualities, but I do not recognize her as my partner, is barely a date.

Trying to describe the feelings here, not the factual reality, I know we are legally married we share belongings and home and responsibility.

I feel all of this as fake (except my daughter), I even proposed to separate in home, I gladly give her everything and renounce of any right to anything we shared in our marriage. She can have it all.

Then if she ever turns her life around and is really serious about seeing me for the person I am, not as a role that can be replaced by any man, ok, I may consider it or not, I cannot tell you now how it will look in the future or how I will feel.

For sure I sacrificed half my life to love a person that did not give a fuck about me, I was her "trophy husband" to show off to make other women jealous.

She does not even know me, who I am, what I feel, zero idea about my dreams, my needs, nothing.
The only thing she learned were my vulnerabilities so she could exploit them and manipulate to have it her way.

For all the rest we are like strangers.

I have a bit of envy for all of you BS and WS who are making progress, not in the malicious way but I am genuinely glad for you.
I just do not see our couple fitting the schema of true reconciliation at this point in time.

And writing here helps me to verbalize and understanding if I am wasting my time, or I am reading her wrong.
Was blindsided too many times to have another one

You haven’t failed at anything. You have been human having a human experience.

And I am clear the feelings are not there. I do not agree okay for you to shop for women, but my history and all that happened will never allow me to accept that ever going to be good for you. Shop if you are divorced otherwise you will be trading one type of cognitive dissonance for another. And truly, a woman who is worth it is never going to step into such an ambiguous situation, it’s a good way to get another faulty partner if you find someone willing to accept they are going to be starting before the ending.

.

So there is no false Reconciliation going on, because there is no Reconciliation at all right now. There is her wish to R, but I cannot agree to it unless I regain trust and respect.

This goes kind of against what your original post said.

I think what I was trying to say is you simply have this cognitive dissonance going on. It’s normal, I think all bs have it until they feel they have reached their firm decision.

When I think of being detached in the cognitive dissonance of staying when parts of me want to leave, part hopes for a miracle to occur to be more comfortable in the uncertainty. To be friends with it. I have been in those shoes too.

I think if you are already done you would walk.

If you were in it, you would be in love.

Detached means that you are going to focus on yourself. Not other relationships, not what to do with this one. Just what to do with yourself.

That’s the cleanest way. Though I recognize everything you say is natural and common, and we are humans and messy. I am here to reflect back, not be convinced of anything.

This is how I read you.

If you are already certain then yes, I think you can’t be in a relationship for her. I think you are not though, so get comfortable and accept where you are: in a state of uncertainty. There is a lot of richness to be found if you can do that. It will lead you out of the cognitive dissonance into clarity.

If you feel you have clarity you would not need another relationship to convince you it’s time to go. That’s how I got here actually. Then my husband played things your way and ended up in an entangled affair and still figured out at the end that was stupid and he really wanted me. Don’t make it messier, you will regret that.

[This message edited by hikingout at 8:39 PM, Tuesday, February 3rd]

If you are already certain then yes, I think you can’t be in a relationship for her. I think you are not though, so get comfortable and accept where you are: in a state of uncertainty. There is a lot of richness to be found if you can do that. It will lead you out of the cognitive dissonance into clarity.

If you feel you have clarity you would not need another relationship to convince you it’s time to go. That’s how I got here actually. Then my husband played things your way and ended up in an entangled affair and still figured out at the end that was stupid and he really wanted me. Don’t make it messier, you will regret that.

You read well this: I am not sure where this will go. If she can change I am open to her, if she cannot I will eventually walk. It's my daughter the deciding factor here, because she is a traumatized child and the adoptive father abandoning her will be another trauma.

I accepted the state of uncertainty because it is the reality, and I have no attachment to any outcome.

I do not need another relationship either. My clarity is what I do want from a relationship: someone who can give me what I can give her. Which is a lot, maybe a lot to ask too, but I feel it's possible.

And I am clear the feelings are not there. I do not agree okay for you to shop for women, but my history and all that happened will never allow me to accept that ever going to be good for you. Shop if you are divorced otherwise you will be trading one type of cognitive dissonance for another. And truly, a woman who is worth it is never going to step into such an ambiguous situation, it’s a good way to get another faulty partner if you find someone willing to accept they are going to be starting before the ending.

No it would not be okay to shop for women, I meant something else. I am "receptive" for female attention (it does not happen when I am in a committed relationship), that is an indicator that feelings of love broke.

I would not want a woman who is okay to go in a relationship with a married guy (it already happened several times to get this kind of attention, that is a huuuuge red flag), because is against my own values (I would never go in between 2 people) and it means this is a girl who does not respect herself.

And I am not interested pursuing any girl right now because of my situation, I simply acknowledged that if I am not immune to female charme anymore so it 'might happen' that I meet someone who catches my interest.

If that happens that would seal the final strike on my relationship with my wife, it means my emotions, body and psyche took the final decision what to do forward. So IF that happens divorce is unavoidable (not about this hypothetical woman, I may very well ignore her existence, if those feelings are awoken this is a message to myself, clarity on what is next).

I never had rush for finding 'company' I always felt fine alone, when I wanted company I always known I could easily date. I do not have any rush or anxiety about that now, I am more mature than before.

At last it is true that a part of me (whether it is an echo from the past or something deeper) still would like to see my wife rise and heal herself, become a complete person capable of owning her emotions and proud of herself.

I would be happy if she can grow. The maybe there could be a chance. There is still all the matter of entering again in a relationship where I am the BS and she is the WS trying to reconcile, so I do not know how that will feel and go.

@hiking: I like your replies because I am not here looking to convince anyone, this is the only place were I could ever reflect on my thoughts and emotions (kept inside for 17 years), and seeing a different perspective or read from people who understand it, is truly important.

I am self centered (beside being a parent obviously) I am focusing all my energy on myself, rebuilding your life is not a small task. I do not know why I am not closed to others now (including my WW) I am more open than I ever was (with solid boundaries) my detachment is from outcomes, I feel supremely confident that all is going to work out.

Writing gives shape to a lot of things that were unexpressed, it's interesting to see what is impulsively coming out (I have to read my replies often to see what was flowing)

[This message edited by BackfromtheStorm at 11:03 PM, Tuesday, February 3rd]