SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Can't help to think the Karama Train is pulling in to the station for both you and your CW.

Sometimes the train just runs a little late.

Look, I get it if many of you are triggered that a FWH got a divorce from his FBW, married and had another child with his FAP, and that he speaks well of her even after she cheated herself. But if you don’t believe me about what I say about my life, and you refuse to listen to what it is I’m actually saying, then there is no point in this conversation. I politely ask that if that is the case for you, that you stop reading and replying to this thread.

I would like to again remind you that the following are scenarios that do, in fact, happen in real life:

- A BS is a good partner/parent AND their WS betrays them

- A BS is a bad partner/parent AND their WS betrays them

- A BS is just an okay partner/parent AND their WS betrays them

Notice I did NOT make "Yeah, the WS may have betrayed their spouse, BUT the BS was a nasty piece of work" part of that list.

I have not once attempted to justify or excuse my infidelity and subsequent behavior in this thread. Again, I am not telling you these things about my XW nor my CW with the intent to justify or excuse myself or CW’s actions as an OW/WW. I am speaking the truth about my life and the people in it for the purpose of providing context for the impending situation at hand. Again, if you are unable to recognize it as such, I ask that you stop reading and replying to this thread.

ONCE MORE, the following is not justification for my infidelity or to paint myself as a victim. It is an elaboration on the circumstances before and afterwards for the purpose of providing context only. I do not need to be berated for my past decisions or have my words twisted. I live with my regrets every day. That being said…

My father was extremely abusive to myself and my mother. He would beat me, and if I cried he would beat me worse until I stopped. He did things like make me chug a gallon of water and not permit me to go to the bathroom, and then when I urinated in my pants, he beat me for it. He made every effort to instill in me that emotions other than anger were for women, and he’d be damned if he raised a weak son. My mother couldn’t protect me because he would beat her, and she didn’t have the means to leave him for a long time. She sank into depression, and for much of my childhood, was checked out of life, and I was deprived of her attention and affection. That is what I had for a model of parenting and romantic love between spouses.

Looking back, my relationship to XW was rocky from the start. At one point, I was working three jobs while in college in order to make ends meet, while XW was unemployed, partying multiple times a week, and buying drinks for all her friends. CW once asked me why I proposed to her, and all I could answer was that we had been dating for a couple years and it just seemed like that’s what people do. Everything had to be XW’s way, and there were nasty fights if I protested, some of which resulted in having objects thrown at me. This reinforced to me that my happiness didn’t matter and conflict was best avoided, so I started keeping my mouth shut, no matter how much resentment it built. She would make major decisions on her own without discussing them with me, like going to law school when we were already struggling financially, getting off her birth control without telling me when she wanted to conceive our children, and raising our children with her religion instead of mine or allowing them to choose for themselves.

We rarely had sex, and when we did, it was me initiating it and her rolling her eyes and saying things like "Lets get this over with." Instant mood killer. She did her best to make me feel undesirable and like a pervert for wanting vanilla sex with her. I tried communicating with her to make it a better experience for her, but she refused to discuss it. I tried changing my body be more attractive for her, and she just told me I looked gross. I asked her to give me some sort of sign that she might be open to sex so I wouldn’t be "pestering her" for it and getting rejected or demeaned. That resulted in no sex whatsoever. She would say things like, "If you just did the dishes, maybe I would feel less stressed out and want sex…" So I ended up working long hours and doing almost all of the work around the house, and that did not improve our sex life either. Naturally, the more time I spent making money and doing chores, the less time I spent caring for our daughters, which XW complained about as well.

I asked her to go to MC multiple times with me to work on all these issues. We would go to a couple sessions and then quit because "the counselor made her feel like the villain" or "that one just wanted to talk about your childhood," after one asked me about it and marveled that I hadn’t killed myself or gone to jail yet. As I mentioned in another post, towards the end of our marriage, I was feeling suicidal, numb, angry all the time… I wasn’t exactly an alcoholic, but I did often binge drink. I know these things affected my ability to be a good partner to her, and a good parent to our children, and that couldn’t have been easy to live with. We were completely dysfunctional.

We also never touched each other affectionately, and hardly ever verbally expressed love for one another. That just wasn’t done in our FOOs. She said she only felt loved when I bought her things, which just made the relationship feel transactional. CW thought I didn’t even like her very much when we first started dating, because I didn’t tell her, touch her affectionately, or initiate sex. She basically had to re-train me that these things were okay and actively desired by her, and that she felt embarrassed by expensive gifts. She finds new and creative ways to compliment me daily, and our sex life is good, even after her A. She also got really frustrated by my conflict avoidance. While there are still some lingering vestiges of that, she actively encourages me to express my feelings even when we disagree because they matter to her, and we feel that I have made much improvement in this regard. I have gotten to the point where I can cry in front of her. She isn’t disgusted or put off by it. She just comforts me and tells me she’s proud of me for being vulnerable.

She isn’t perfect, by any means. Besides her infidelity, she did ask me to choose our relationship over my children’s feelings many times during the first few years after the divorce. I deeply regret not putting them first, and again, this doesn’t excuse it at all. I was just so afraid of losing her and going back to the way I felt before that I chose incorrectly. We rushed introductions to my daughters and moving in together, forcing our relationship on them. My eldest was understandably unhappy, and tensions were high. CW tried unsuccessfully to improve their relationship, remaining polite to them, trying to give them what space our house would allow, and doing things like getting them thoughtful Christmas presents and making them elaborate birthday cakes, even when she couldn’t claim credit for fear of my eldest rejecting them. She sincerely apologized to them several times for doing things the wrong way. Of course that didn’t change the fact that she was my AP and my eldest didn’t want a stepmother. It didn’t help that XW was whispering things like— and I quote— "Daddy cares more about his dick than you" in their ears and trying everything she could to alienate them from me. That was what made me resolved never to speak badly of their mother in front of them, and I haven’t, thought it has been very difficult at times. They fight often. I got my eldest, and eventually D, into therapy for support, though the latter took a lot longer because XW told her therapy "doesn’t work."

At one point CW told me that she wanted a child, and that if it wasn’t in the cards for us, she would have to move on soon. I knew our family situation was in no condition to bring another child into the world, but I gave in. Three years of trying went by without success. Then when Covid lockdowns happened and we were all cooped up in the house together, it finally occurred to CW that maybe having a baby wasn’t a good idea right then, and she stopped seeking treatment for infertility. A couple months later, however, she unexpectedly conceived anyway. I couldn’t bring myself to tell my daughters. CW got halfway through the pregnancy before they found out about it, and it was only by accidentally discovering an ultrasound picture. My eldest was distraught. My poor middle child (D) kept her feelings to herself and tried to console her sister, often serving as a middle man between me and her.

When XW found out, she convinced them that with a new baby, I would have zero time and attention for them, that they would lose sleep from the baby’s crying at night, and that CW would be nasty to them because they weren’t her biological children and would just be in the way. So about a month before their sister was due, they suddenly packed up their things and went to stay with their mother full time, despite the 50/50 custody agreement. I was blindsided and devastated, but I didn’t feel that I could force them to stay if they didn’t want to be there. I arranged to spend as much time with them outside of our home as my schedule would allow, but obviously that was limited. CW was left alone to care for the baby a lot, but she was understanding and good natured about it. She was just happy to have her.

I thought that they would come back to live with us someday, especially when XW started seriously dating her fiancé and force-integrating their families similarly to the way I had, but they didn’t. Eventually my eldest graduated and moved far away for school, CW struggled to keep up with our large home with a toddler to look after, and D wasn’t coming to visit except for during the holidays anyway, so we moved to a smaller house. The market wasn’t great and the only suitable one we found was about 40 minutes away from D’s school. She has her own friends—with whom she mostly drinks, at the literal facilitation of XW— and spends a lot of time with her similarly-aged STB step siblings, with whom she also drinks. Our house is dry, and I won’t buy her alcohol. So I haven’t been seeing her very often, though not for lack of trying. She does love her younger sister/my youngest daughter and makes effort to spend time with her. She likes to show her off to her friends. I’m not certain, but it may be that she wants CW at her play so that she can wrangle her younger sister if she struggles to sit through it, that way she can still come but won’t require me to be distracted from her performance. I’m not going to ask about it. Whatever reason she has is valid.

As for CW and my eldest’s relationship… It got a lot better after CW declined to visit her with me at her university . I wanted her to come, but my eldest didn’t, and an argument ensued. CW helped me to see that after being forced into having not one, but two step parents, her faraway campus most likely felt like her sanctuary away from it all, where she could make her own decisions and be left alone if desired. She said she also probably just wanted to spend one-on-one time with me, and that CW didn’t want to interfere. I think hearing about that, in combination with therapy and time, helped her to see that CW does care about her, and that she isn’t her enemy. They actually have a lot in common and enjoy talking to one another.

That’s all the more I’ll say about it, and probably the last time I’ll respond here. I’m not interested in being attacked and accused. Thank you to those who have helped me come up with a plan to navigate the upcoming meeting as fairly to all parties as possible in light of the mess I put us in. The rest of you… Good luck on your journeys.

[This message edited by darkdustythoughts at 4:13 PM, Monday, February 2nd]

I’m sorry you have been attacked here.

Certainly not the usual spirit of this site. I’m certain you will make the right decision in the best interest of your child who is being honored at this event.

Look, if this was really about putting D's best interests first, then you would do something or at least SAY something about how this event obviously should not be the first time XW and CW are in proximity. You wouldn't just wring your hands, oh gosh I hope there isn't a scene!

That you aren't is what makes me think this isn't really about having XW and CW there for D. Instead, you have responded at length to justify YOUR experiences, YOUR feelings, and YOUR opinions on the situation. Again everything about those explanations just furthers the point that it's not reasonable to think the event won't be an issue. This only strengthens my suspicions around your true motives. I'm not saying this to just tear you down, but to try and show an actually productive path forward.

To be fair, if DDT wrote much about what CW, XW, and D thought, I'd be on him for doing so without verifying his beliefs about what CW, XW, and D thought. All DDT knows IS what he thinks and feels.

I’m sorry you have been attacked here.

Certainly not the usual spirit of this site.

IDK. It kind of has been the spirit here for last few years. When I came back on here a few years ago, it was pretty toxic, which is why I left again. It does feel to me that things might've shifted back to being more supportive, but there is still some toxicity.

I wasn't saying DDT should write more about what anyone else thinks. I'm saying it is telling that DDT dwells on what he thinks about the background instead of addressing how to make an improvement in the actual issue. The background makes it WORSE that he plans to wait until the stakes are so high to risk a scene.

You don’t think it would be cruel to ask her to spend additional time in CW’s presence in order for them to meet ahead of time?

CW has spent the last several years actively avoiding run-ins with XW so as not to trigger her. She hasn’t attempted to make contact to make an apology for the same reason, wondering whether XW would just prefer to be left alone.

I also wonder if they were to meet ahead of time and it went poorly or it was particularly triggering to XW, is she then more likely to not attend the play? I think CW wouldn’t go if that happened, but the ultimate goal is to have everyone there for D.

The other thing I worry about is pissing her off in advance of the play, and then D having to live with her until then. I don’t want it to be taken out on D, whether intentionally or as a byproduct of her anger at us.

Maybe she is planning on be civil, and asking to meet ahead of time to reduce tension would be condescending?

Finding out what everyone thinks and feels just seems so risky. Or maybe I’m overthinking it.

[This message edited by darkdustythoughts at 6:57 PM, Monday, February 2nd]

DDT, I apologize if my snarky post back on page one felt like an attack. Not apologizing for what I said, but the tone used. Will do a better job limiting snark in the future. Sorry.

Hope it works out for the families to sit separately. This option feels like the logical compromise to a tricky situation since you seem insistent that CW attend. You, CW and child can be there to support D without putting CW in direct Mom competition with Ex when that "something special" event goes down. And, sitting separately lessens the likelihood of any scenes or bad feelings. The downside - you won't be part of that "something special" event in your Dad role - a sh** sandwich consequence you and CW will have to eat. No parental validation during this event. Which is okay, right? The goal is for your family to cheer on D without making Ex uncomfortable, to make the event as low stakes as possible, right? The evening should be about D and the other seniors, not you, Ex or CW, right? Once you've hopefully sorted everything with the school and secured other seats, a simple text to Ex stating the heads-up bare minimum facts - that your family will be in attendance in section XXX seems sufficient.

ETA: Also agree with the other posters that CW should stay home with excuses - but you don't seem interested in that obvious option.And if CW's presence is mainly needed to wrangle your youngest, then youngest should stay home too. I've learned from experience that little ones and live theatre don't always mix. Unless it's a performance of Peter Pan :-).

Hoping the best for D's big night.

[This message edited by BoundaryBuilder at 12:41 AM, Wednesday, February 4th]

It sounds like your daughters from your first wife have a difficult relationship with your current wife at best. It also sounds like you have tried to force a relationship with your current wife onto your daughters. Blame it on your ex-wife if you want, but it's also possibly not entirely her fault, no? Your daughters might genuinely feel a certain negativity to the situation. They might not ever want a close relationship with CW, and they may consider their mother's "force blended" family to be an entirely different situation.

Since your relationship with your eldest improved when you didn't force your daughter into spending time with your current wife, maybe it's a good idea not to do that anymore. You've not really said anything to indicate that your other daughter really wants her stepmom at that event. It sounds like you are conflict avoidant and want a quick solution to avoid a scene, and it's you who wants CW there just like the campus visits. Maybe you should look for a longer-term solution.

Would you be uncomfortable if you CW AP was in attendance? Maybe you should have your CW invite him to level the playing field.

I already said that if I had to sit in an auditorium with CW’s AP for 3 hours for the sake of my daughter, I’d do it. Or at least try, and leave if remaining civil was proving difficult.

But D and CW’s AP have no relationship, and his attendance wasn’t requested.

DDT - I'm not apologizing for anything. I call them as I see them. I think you DON'T see this. You don't get it. Maybe part of the reason you have a difficult or awkward situation with your Ex is because you treat her like this and this is the energy (excuse me for using a woo woo term but I think it's kind of accurate) the energy you project towards her is negative. It flows from everything you write about her. So obviously you don't care about her feelings. You are far more caring of the woman who not only helped you cheat on ex wife and break up the marriage, this woman cheated on you too. Maybe that is who and what she is, that's how she handles certain situations. So I would say, stop demonizing your ex wife and always expecting the worst of her. If you start being kind towards her and thinking better or more compassionately about her, maybe you would have a better result and these kind of concerns would end. The best and kindest, and frankly, in a better age, most decent thing for your CW to do is to STAY HOME. That is the way the least amount of hurt, tension, opportunity for problems, whatever would arise. Your daughter HAS TO LEARN to understand things like this, it's part of growing up. People don't get along and they don't sometimes because they have been abused and badly hurt. Your Ex was abused and badly hurt. This needs to be acknowledged whether you like her or not. Your solution is clear, tell your CW to STAY HOME. If she is the kind of basically decent person you want to believe she is, then she will do that instead of insisting that she go by blaming it on your daughter's desire. Your daughter is a kid who does not understand these things. You and your CW DO and you should do better.

Do better. Tell her to stay home and watch a recording with your daughter. She is not Mom, she does need or deserve anything better than that. That would also be some repentance for her role in breaking up your marriage since she seems to want to apologize.....this would be a good start in making genuine amends by sacrificing something.

My wife grew up in her sisters house. There was domestic abuse she witnessed. Years later her brother in law wanted to apologize for it. My wife didn't want to talk about it. I told him to let it go. She didn't want his apology. My brother had a one night stand that the guilt ate at him so badly he told his wife. She left him soon after and divorced. He said "I told her to make myself feel better, it did not make her feel better" I think if your CW really wants to apologize maybe sitting this one out and making an excuse not to go would be more prudent and a better apology. For me I would never want my wife's AP coming up and apologizing to me . The rage alone would consume me. There are some things that an apology just isn't going to fix. In fact it may add fuel to a fire. I wish you the best of luck. I hope your daughter has a great time and feels loved by her family.

I don't know if you can understand this, but you are treating your daughters like objects that are extensions of your ex-wife. You are ignoring any feelings about the situation that they are themselves expressing. You seem to believe that because you love your current wife and she is great and your ex-wife is horrible, that the only possible reason for the bad relationship is your ex-wife and what she says.

They are young women now. They can and likely do have their own feelings. So you kept the pregnancy from them and attribute the reason that they moved out solely to your ex-wife's influence. Yet it sounds like they found out before your ex-wife and were very upset over it.

I don't know, but you seem to think if you and current wife do it all nicely and treat them well and buy them presents, they will eventually come around. In fact, you seem to think you and current wife are entitled to that. Maybe just let that go. Really. They are their own people. And there is a huge hypocrisy in divorce where you tell children they are family and have family responsibilities if you abandon those responsibilities yourself to be happy. I understand you can't see that. It doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

DDT - I just read your long post especially about your having a child with CW and your daughters' reaction. I DO think you are white knighting your CW over and over for whatever reasons, and not considering the feelings of other people, whether they be valid or not - they still have them. I think a common feeling that kids, even older ones, have when a divorced parent and a new spouse, especially the AP who broke up the marriage - and yes, that is the truth even if it was a very unhappy marriage, that was the coup de gras - have a new baby. I think many children of the first marriage feel they have been "replaced". They were abandoned by your for not only this other woman....but for the baby. It's a happy occurrence for you and your CW....but not necessarily for children of the first marriage. I think the feeling of being replaced - that the new baby has the ideal family, the full family experience that the older children did not have, is totally natural and even common. It's akin to jealousy - people are very possessive in family groups, that's what gives them such strong cohesion - but it's more complicated. I would say it is probably very common - and very natural- for the older children to have very negative feelings about a new baby from a 2nd marriage. It's not the same thing for them as it is for you. They may not even understand their own feelings or feel ashamed or embarrassed about them because our culture teaches us to be DISHONEST, especially about feelings. I don't think your Ex necessarily had anything to do with this - maybe she did, but she didn't have to say a word....they probably would have these feelings anyway. She may have aggravated the situation, but what she said is not necessarily untrue - in fact....I would think that is true that many step mothers DO react like that to the older children. Most women prefer their OWN kids, and that's just again....the honest truth.

I think you do try to do everything you can to white knight your CW and to...well....black knight...your ex. I'll refrain from my observations about your CW at this point, but I know that people often react to us based on how we treat them. You have to learn to be nicer and kinder towards your ex wife and to consider her feelings in these situations. I think if you start doing this and keep it up even if you don't believe in it or feel like it....you will see a difference in her, and in your older children too.

I think a common feeling that kids, even older ones, have when a divorced parent and a new spouse, especially the AP who broke up the marriage - and yes, that is the truth even if it was a very unhappy marriage, that was the coup de gras - have a new baby. I think many children of the first marriage feel they have been "replaced". They were abandoned by your for not only this other woman....but for the baby. It's a happy occurrence for you and your CW....but not necessarily for children of the first marriage. I think the feeling of being replaced - that the new baby has the ideal family, the full family experience that the older children did not have, is totally natural and even common.

If you read about divorce situations like this from the child's point of view, there's a story told enough for it to be a theme. The children from the first marriage are told by the parent and step-parent that the new baby will come with additional responsibilities. They will have to help with childcare and additional home chores. Due to gender norms, this happens more frequently with dad and stepmom and female children who are teens and pre-teens. It probably hits a little harder for the older one who experienced dad leaving mom for stepmom and likely had additional responsibilities with childcare of her sister and helping around the house with her mom.

They're also told that this is their family now, and family means a permanent tie and responsibility. They're asked to put time and emotional and physical energy to the new child. Yet they know another divorce can happen, and it's not really permanent family in any way they can control.

Open communication where you discuss the hard topics and empathy can help in the situation, whether the child feels replaced or used as household help without their consent. That's the reason I'm writing this. It's not to bash or criticize.