SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

A member here in a recent post of mine made this statement.

Can they change? Perhaps, but I think actual change is rare. If the stars align again and temptation presents itself, the possibility exists that they can do this again because...it's already been a reality.

Though I don’t fully agree with it, it did sting, for there is, in my case, truth spoken.

I have spent many hours pondering this statement, weighing it against what I want to believe and share, verses what my experience with infidelity factually was years ago verses now.

I have spent the previous 8 months sharing about my wife’s long-term affair with what was then my best friend. In the beginning I unloaded my grief like a waterfall of sewage. But I have also told the sweeter side, the truth that my wife and I are extremely happy and have built a marriage I am proud of. And I am speaking from a position of strength that there is joy in my life, her life, our marriage. We worked hard to arrive at this point, and I give a ton of credit to my wife for the work she needed to do and did. And yet…..

Betrayed spouses often have their own trickle truth issues, and this is mine.

My wife, 5 years prior to her affair with my friend, had her 1st affair. I saw it immediately, addressed it the moment I did, and she, without hesitation, confessed. The next day we packed up and left our mission field work and returned to our home church for guidance.

The Christian counseling we received approached the affair as sin on my wife’s part and what was needed was her to confess before God and her husband and then forgiveness from me, (which was a requirement of the faith). Once that had occurred, God had forgiven and washed us clean and we could continue with His work, "for all have fallen short of the glory of God."

There was no reason to dig into the issue that made infidelity a choice for it was all about sin and we all are equally guilty in the eyes of God. Right? Uggg! That was our teaching and I believed it.

I thought it was done and over with. And I never, in a million years, would have imagined that "If the stars align and temptation presents itself,…". She would do it again. NEVER!

I think that is why I beat myself up for so many decades. How I allowed a blind faith in both my wife and my God" to leave me vulnerable to a second time. So, my member friend, squirm as I might, your point is well taken and not without its own wisdom.

I will defend my wife as she has presented herself for the past 33 years, but I will not defend her actions prior. There is no question in my mind that she learned from her 1st affair how to hide her second. How to lie when confronted, how to manipulate my trust and faith in her and God to her advantage. And she did so like a honed professional. What she hadn’t counted on was her own conscience would eventually betray her.

That is why, after she disclosed the second affair, I insisted that we NOT get Christian counseling. I stated that I would only stay if we sought out secular counseling. Even then I made the error of approaching it as a marriage failure issue not as my wife’s personal family history issue, for, by the grace of God we were new creatures. (Lingering’s of old beliefs systems not yet dead.)

There is an old saying that some might apply here: "Fool me once shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me."

I reject this statement because when a person fools someone who has given them their unwavering trust, they are fully at fault 100% of the time, every time. The number of times does not shift the blame.

I will end with this; People can and do change for the better if they choose and I want to never become so jaded that I refuse to see it or to allow for it.

Asterisk

Thank you for sharing this Asterisk. I believe the chance of a second betrayal happening is partially due to circumstances, or stars aligning, but mainly if people don't do the work the first time.
My husband's was impacted by his mother's affair as a teenager and then his first serious girlfriend cheated on him. When in 2002-2003 he was approached by his mate's wife in the army who had a reputation on the base, he took the opportunity and had sex with her a couple of times during the year he was leaving the army. She then went on to have another child with her husband and they never spoke about it. A couple years later they relocated and my husband met me. He never told me about this previous affair die to shame and the knowledge I probably would not have dated him.
Five years later, after a whirlwind few years and a period of work, family and financial stress the old affair partner moved back to the UK...a few nude pictures later another affair begun 🙄
If my husband had done the work required the first time he cheated (when he wasn't dating me) the second affair may never have happened.
Consequently, I don't believe once a cheater, always a cheater but I do believe someone who has cheated and not done the work has a high chance or reoffending.

Just out of curiosity...

Why share this 1st affair now, after 8 months?

Evio,
Thank you for sharing and I am deeply sorry for what your husband did. I have little doubt that his not sharing in the 1st place was due to deep shame. Shame is a efficient silencer.

If my husband had done the work required the first time he cheated (when he wasn't dating me) the second affair may never have happened.

Yes, and this is what I was sharing. Due to a faulty belief system, we did not do the hard work. We relied on a simplistic solution that failed both my wife and me. I often hear it called; "sweeping it under the carpet." In our case it was "sweeping it under the alter." Same verb, different noun, same results.

Asterisk

Unhinged,

Just out of curiosity...

Why share this 1st affair now, after 8 months?

Lack of trust, Shame, And Protection

Now it is my turn Unhinged. Out of curiosity, I question your question. Was it truly out of pure curiosity?

Asterisk

Hi Asterisk -

Now it is my turn Unhinged. Out of curiosity, I question your question. Was it truly out of pure curiosity?

I can't speak for Unhinged, but I'm guessing he's asking because it's a significant aspect of your trauma and healing journey that I guess you didn't mention earlier. Coming to SI and bearing your soul, as you have done, is sort of like going to a doctor to resolve a medical issue. You can't expect the doctor to diagnose the issue if you don't provide all of the symptoms.

My guess, and I suspect other SI long-timers will tell you this, is that your wife's first affair played substantially in your healing challenges over the past 30+ years after the second affair. Neither you nor your wife healed correctly from that first affair. It was fine to get the religious-based take on the affair (reminder of sin, etc), but you still needed the secular-based unpacking and fixing that apparently didn't happen. So, recovering from the second affair is that much harder.

I have to say that you get lots of points in my book for even attempting to recover your marriage and reconcile after the second affair. For most of us, affairs are deal-breakers - until they happen. Then if we're willing, we try and sort it out and go forward with recovery and reconciliation if possible. But again for most of us, a second affair would be non-negotiable. For the folks on SI that have been able to deal with multiple affairs (different D-Days) and still have a good, reconciled marriage, I can't imagine having the strength and resolve to accomplish that.

I will end with this; People can and do change for the better if they choose and I want to never become so jaded that I refuse to see it or to allow for it.

I think change IS life.

Not a part of life, not some people change and some don’t, I really see life is all about change.

Now, some negative behaviors, some poor habits are tougher to fix or change than others, and I think that is where SI can be helpful in recognizing some common traits that will sink a relationship if they aren’t addressed.

In a simpler way, I think there are some WS who are so self-centered, they refuse to change, and other WS who get trapped in shame and never get back to being a fully healed and healthy partner.

My wife betrayed her own standards, her own best interests. That was a decent place to start when we had to look at the changes she needed to make, and I needed to make to put the M back together. It doesn’t mean my wife’s actions weren’t selfish, they were. She just wanted to understand how she failed herself, and me — which again, was something to work with.

Childhood trauma, low esteem and lousy coping mechanisms can pull the best among us off track.

In our R, we both needed to re-learn our own value in order to re-build the M.

The more we value ourselves and feel good about ourselves, the better partners we can be. And I find it applies to the hurt partner and as well the partner who did the hurting.

Was it truly out of pure curiosity?

For the most part, yes, it was simple curiosity. I will admit that are first I was a bit offended. You had deliberately left out a very significant part of your story. However, I also realized that by and large you've focused on your struggles to heal, not your wife's affair. So, I was, and still am, curious to understand why you've never mentioned this first affair before?

It's not at all surprising, by the way. Very little on this site surprises me these days. You have a habit of writing in very general terms and it's only been after some prodding that you'll share details.

Lack of trust, Shame, And Protection

I don't understand this. I think most people on this sites, myself included, are generally quite open and honest about their struggles and issues. I'm sure we all leave some stuff out, but not something as relevant as another affair.

"Fool me once shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me."

You wrote that you reject this saying. I don't believe you. I think a big part of your struggles is that you were fooled again, already knowing what your wife was capable of doing. Thus the shame.

Mr20Paws,

You can't expect the doctor to diagnose the issue if you don't provide all of the symptoms.

I cannot dispute your analogy. However, I did not trust the doctor. (Trust in general was (is) in short supply.) I read for a few weeks before I decided that this was a place I could try to share. I had checked out some other sites (never spoke or joined) but I felt as if the wayward spouse was a punching bag.) Agreed, it is understandable, and there needs to be a safe place to poor out one’s anger; however, I was too far into the journey to need to beat up on my wife’s actions. I saw the current issue as my issue to tease out and make the necessary changes that "I" needed to make. My wife wasn’t struggling, I was.

It was fine to get the religious-based take on the affair (reminder of sin, etc), but you still needed the secular-based unpacking and fixing that apparently didn't happen.

Again, this is true. But back when I carried a deep faith-based belief, I was indoctrinated to not trust anything secular. And I didn’t. That was an absolutely complete failure on my part, one that I would advise anyone who might be of similar beliefs reevaluate.

I will attempt to explain a little bit more when I answer Unhinged. He has, from the beginning of my posting, seen through my smoke screens. Kind of earie.

Asterisk

Oldwounds,

My wife betrayed her own standards, her own best interests. That was a decent place to start when we had to look at the changes she needed to make, and I needed to make to put the M back together. It doesn’t mean my wife’s actions weren’t selfish, they were. She just wanted to understand how she failed herself, and me — which again, was something to work with

This perspective aliens well with how I have approached the healing process. One of the issues that has made my journey longer and more frustrating than it needed to be is that my wife’s method of self-examination and decisions arrived at to make needed changes are done without my involvement. She simply cannot, or refuses to, share her processes with me. She does it alone, she does it quietly, and in a way, I do not understand but I do recognize that this is her method and I have chosen to honor it. I will state, before someone else does, I do not believe her way is the best or most effective way. I often feel left out and on unsure ground. I have to muffle the feeling that she doesn’t trust me with her inner struggles.

Asterisk

Unhinged,

For the most part, yes, it was simple curiosity. I will admit that are first I was a bit offended.

I understand and you have every right to be offended. Of course, offending you or anyone here has never been my intent.

You had deliberately left out a very significant part of your story. However, I also realized that by and large you've focused on your struggles to heal, not your wife's affair

You have heard me, which is comforting. I saw (incorrectly) no value in sharing the 1st affair. For what I was trying to accomplish I thought I could get there without revisiting every sleezy detail of my wife’s affairs.

As you are aware, I have pushed back when I felt individuals, in their honest desire to assist me, would try to divert my attention away from the course of action I felt very strongly I needed to take. And that was to focus on me and the changes I needed to make. Not my wife and the changes she needed to make. I didn’t come here with a need to tear down my wife. (That need is very important to do in the earlier stages of recovery and possible reconciliation, but I was way beyond that stage.

Knowing the direction does not imply that I knew how to go about it and that is why I reached out here at SI. And I have not been disappointed.

So, I was, and still am, curious to understand why you've never mentioned this first affair before?

Honestly, I do not fully know. What I can share is that I thought I could arrive at some needed suggestions without divulging every sordid detail. Part of it also revolves around my feelings of shame. When someone says, "How could you stay?" "You should have kicked her ass to the curb!" it is hard not to feel the heft of social shaming. I feel enough of a fool without a pile on. I guess, there is no escaping, it was cowardness on my part.

But none of this explains the "why now" to your question. In a different post someone was sharing with me that basically a wayward spouse’s odds of not reoffending were very low at best. "Once a cheater always a cheater." I was pushing back on this statement, sharing my opinion that many wayward spouses do in fact make the needed changes to become a safe partner. And my belief in that has not been depleted. However, after my response to this member, I found myself feeling hypocritical because my wife did reoffend. The Love of my life was the poster child for what this member was saying. I knew I was going to be, in the eyes of some, discrediting myself but on self-reflection, I felt I had now placed myself in a position of deceit and in fairness to someone who was attempting to assist me I needed to set the record straight.

I’m sure there are many other, smaller reasons but hopefully this satisfies your "curiosity". What I have learned about you is that you do care about me and I hope I have not lost your respect.

"Fool me once shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me."
You wrote that you reject this saying. I don't believe you. I think a big part of your struggles is that you were fooled again, already knowing what your wife was capable of doing. Thus the shame.

I have given you reason not to believe me. That is on me. And yes, I was played the fool for a second time. Guilty as charged.

When I say "I reject this saying" I am not stating that I do not carry shame, I think that many, if not most betrayed spouse do shoulder some level of unfair shame. What I am attempting to relay is that I understand intellectually that to trust and to be fooled is nothing to be ashamed of. That shame, like the shame of an affair, is 100% belonging to the person who has betrayed. But I do suffer from an emotional, irrational, held belief that at some level, I have reason to be ashamed. It is like being stripped naked in the public square for something you did not do. Few would be so self-assured that they would turn forward towards the crowd and, with hands at their side, confidently stand tall. It is my belief that most, out of some sense of unwarranted shame, would turn away from the onlookers and attempt to shield their vulnerable, private parts, even though they did nothing wrong.

Unhinged, what I am trying to say is that when I arrived here, I felt extremely vulnerable and to strip myself fully naked for every skin flaw to be exposed was more layers than I could take off. The good new is that over the past 8 months, members here have helped me gain trust in them and this site, allowing for more exposure without the shame. (Or at least not as much shame.)

All said and done, I do not regret my decision to trust my wife again. She has, over the past 3 decades, proved herself worthy of my trust. I maintain that the issue I now face is self-imposed suffering. It is pain of my own making. And that gives me the power to change and grow reducing the suffering with one self-understanding after another.

With full respect,
Asterisk

Asterisk, I have nothing but admiration for your ability to overcome your fears and to come out from behind the screen in your full glory. Bravo! I think your honesty and candor are healthy for you, but as importantly, will redound to the benefit of the devastated souls who come to this site looking for guidance and relief. Your example of standing naked in the town square was a good one but it made me think about the difference between shame and humiliation. When I first found out, I was ashamed and humiliated (and a whole lot of other emotions all jumbled up and tumbling out randomly). It took a very long time but eventually I realized that I had not done anything to merit shame. This site did not yet exist and I was/am too much if a blockhead to seek counsel, so I lingered in shame way too long. But after the shame-shedding epiphany, the humiliation remained. I don’t know if it will ever go away completely. It goes hand-in-hand with trust. Since reading your first posts I have adopted your very helpful asterisk philosophy. Thirty years of trustworthiness does count, but I will never again trust without the asterisk and I sure as hell do not want our kids, friends, and relations to know our 52 year marriage has an asterisk. That there is the penumbra of humiliation.

NotSoGreatExpectations,

Your example of standing naked in the town square was a good one but it made me think about the difference between shame and humiliation. When I first found out, I was ashamed and humiliated (and a whole lot of other emotions all jumbled up and tumbling out randomly). It took a very long time but eventually I realized that I had not done anything to merit shame.

I am not sure just why, but I rarely use the word "humiliation" and that is a miss on my part. I’m going to have to tease out the difference between the two and get back with you.

This site did not yet exist...

This was true for me as well. Hell, probably like you, the internet didn’t exist and home computers were tiny, tiny, green screen boxes reserved for the nerds. 😊

But after the shame-shedding epiphany, the humiliation remained. I don’t know if it will ever go away completely.

Boy can I relate. One of the best methods I have learned from this place is to keep bringing myself back to the present. To stop my relentless reviewing attempting to make sense of the senseless. It is not easy to keep present, but what I will say is that my life with my wife, this day, is amazing. The love and commitment to each other is something to find joy. So when I stay here verses back there, I’m at peace. I’m proud of our accomplishments, but when I return to the past, I am met with shame’s humiliation. That does not mean I don’t ponder it what I am trying to say is that I need not relive it.

Since reading your first posts I have adopted your very helpful asterisk philosophy.

I don’t know what the heck that is, but I’d advise rethinking it! 😊

thirty years of trustworthiness does count, but I will never again trust without the asterisk…

I have said this myself and am trying to rewrite what the asterisk means. For over 3 decades I have lived with the (*) meaning as a negative footnote in an otherwise positive life. What I am beginning to grasp is that there are far more positive asterisks in my story with my wife. And that I have a choice of focus and of adding more and more positive asterisks that will loom larger than the deeply imbedded asterisk of my wife’s infidelity.

I sure as hell do not want our kids, friends, and relations to know our 52 year marriage has an asterisk.

I fully understand and have taken the same stance. I did not see an upside to saddling my kids, my parents, her parents, friends with the unbearable weight we were both carrying. Plus, I believed that if I did disclose to family and friends, it would make reconciliation that much harder. And, in full disclosure, I wanted to protect my wife and myself from the shame.
Oh, I must not forget to say, congratulations of 52 years of marriage. Bravo!

Asterisk

A lot to unpack here.

First! I disagree with your "naked in the public square" analogy. It's an anonymous site, for starters. I tend to think of it more like group therapy without the therapists, which is the best part. For me, especially in the early days, the knowledge that everyone here understood how I was feeling and what I was going through was like... well, joining the greatest club that no one ever wanted to join.

I don't know what difference, if any, including her first affair would have made when you joined. What I do believe, however, is that it's a huge part of your struggles and leaving it out of your story was a disservice to yourself, not any of us.

Personally, once was more than enough for me. My exww didn't have an affair. It was hardly more than a ONS. I busted her within days. There's absolutely no possibility that I would have ever stayed married to her if she'd cheated again. And I told her this while we were reconciling (repeatedly).

But... that's me, based on my own beliefs, personality and experiences. I could choose to shame others who are different or I could choose to learn from them.

It seems to me that you're trying to find fault in yourself for continuing to struggle with all of this decades later. I see no fault in you, aside from trying to find one.

I write this often because I think it's axiomatic. The one thing that never ceases to amaze me is just how hard infidelity hits people. The betrayal of infidelity is a severe emotional and psychological trauma.

I consider myself healed. However, in the seven years since our separation I have not been on a date. Not one. I've been interested upon occasion, but I'm so fucking terrified of another heartbreak that I simply cannot imagine ever being vulnerable again.

I've been on this site for over ten years. I've read plenty of people's stories. I know that BS who have R'd will struggle, upon occasion, even decades later. Why? Because the betrayal of infidelity is a severe emotional and psychological trauma. That, and the fact that while a BS may have learned to deal with and disarm every possible trigger, one will always remain: the spouse.

I think this is one of the quandaries you struggle to understand. While your marriage may be stronger than ever and generally happy, she will always be a trigger. That's the choice you've made and I have no interest at all in questioning your choice, nor in shaming you for it. After all, it's not my life.

You blame yourself for not having healed enough, not being able to let go, or whatever. You think you "should" be able to put it all in the past, love your wife for who she is now, not then, to live in the moment, and then kick yourself in the nutsack for failing to do so.

Stop punishing yourself. You didn't create this situation. She did. This is all on her. All of it. You've chosen to stay married, which also means that you've chosen to live in an environment which includes the possibility of the occasional trigger. It's a trade-off of sorts. But it's not your fault and there's nothing you can do, I think, but to accept it and let it be.

back when I carried a deep faith-based belief, I was indoctrinated to not trust anything secular. And I didn’t. That was an absolutely complete failure on my part, one that I would advise anyone who might be of similar beliefs reevaluate.

When you were a full believer, what could someone have said to you to get you to reevaluate your beliefs?

You can celebrate discarding beliefs that led you astray. I have a hard time seeing how one can reasonably maintain that they need to carry shame for holding those old beliefs in the first place. Except, of course, that human beings think they control much more than they do control.

I'm certainly familiar with holding beliefs that turned out to be false, and I'm not talking about my W. The healthiest solution, IMO, is to recognize the wrong turn and nurture - not attack - oneself for taking it. Alas, learning to nurture oneself is as difficult in its way as learning to forgive in its way.

So I, too, think holding back your W's 1st A says something very significant about you and your struggle.

I do not fault you for treating the first A according to your religious beliefs. They formed your almost inescapable world view, and world view drives decisions.

Unhinged,

First! I disagree with your "naked in the public square" analogy. It's an anonymous site, for starters.

I’m not sure what there is to "disagree with" here. I was not describing how you feel, I was expressing how I felt and now trying to disrobe those feelings. What part of that can anyone disagree with?

I fully understand that I did not go about reconciliation or healing in the most efficient way. My hats off to those who did. One of the reasons that I am sharing my failings is in the slim hope that maybe someone will recognize a similarity and change course much earlier than I did.

Not once have I ever said to do it as I did it. I share what I share for two main reasons. To learn from others and to show examples of what didn’t work for me in the past and what is showing signs of working for me now. For example, holding back the information about my wife’s 1st affair didn’t protect me in fact it served to hurt me. You all have pointed this out to me and I’m listening.

Obviously, I’m perplexed and am a bit defensive, which can be blinding. This is my issue to work through. Give me time and I will.

You blame yourself for not having healed enough, not being able to let go, or whatever. You think you "should" be able to put it all in the past, love your wife for who she is now, not then, to live in the moment, and then kick yourself in the nutsack for failing to do so.

It may seem as if I don’t, but Unhinged, I respect your thoughts and I listen to you closely. Never once have I outright dismissed your insights. From time to time, issue to issue, I may see it differently but that is not the same as not valuing that difference.

In reading the paragraph in pink above, I think I have not found the words to properly express myself. To share my mistakes and misgivings, my griefs and wrong steps isn’t kicking myself in the "nutsack". To share that I am learning new techniques such as living in the moment, isn’t to say that this is the magical door to healing. I am also not stating that I won’t come to find out it doesn’t work in the long run. And that is why it is important for me to un-grip my grasp of defensiveness. Give me time and I will.

That, and the fact that while a BS may have learned to deal with and disarm every possible trigger, one will always remain: the spouse.

Oh my goodness, I don’t think we could be further apart. I will partially agree, that if I keep choosing to see my wife as she was then she will always be a trigger. I didn’t understand that concept when I arrived here months ago, but I do believe I do now. When I accept what happened, happened and choose to live in this time and space as it is now, my wife is not my trigger. My viewpoint is.

Asterisk

Hey Asterisk,

I know you already stated you understand her approach isn’t one you agree with, but it is key:

She simply cannot, or refuses to, share her processes with me.

All of the mindfulness in the world can’t bridge an intimacy gap — and I think it is incredibly important for any rebuild to include sharing the toughest thoughts.

Intimacy begins, for me, with trust.

My wife’s path back to me, was being able to share her process, good, bad, horrible or otherwise.

If your wife cannot trust your response to her process, that could be why you still find yourself struggling at times.

And for my wife, by being fearless in her sharing, she got to find out that I love her, faults and all and in turn, makes her feel like an equal in our rebuild.

All of that said, if you feel good enough about where your M is, then go with that.

However, if you’re still haunted along the way, this would be the place to start, asking her to trust you with how she tackled her issues.

Sisson,

When you were a full believer, what could someone have said to you to get you to reevaluate your beliefs?

No, I would not have. But my hope is that if there is someone questioning themselves that my experience may be seen as helpful.

So I, too, think holding back your W's 1st A says something very significant about you and your struggle.

No doubt not a very positive one.

Asterisk

Hi Asterisk -

I think there is room for religious-based guidance in recovering from an affair. The basic foundations of most religious disciplines - sin, forgiveness, grace, faith, humility, acceptance, etc are good grounding reminders. But as you found out, this may only be one tool in the affair-recovery toolkit.

In my personal experience regarding this, I was told to "let go and let God". That's a common phrase that's often used to help us accept our plight and put it in the hands of a greater power. And I tried this. I tried very hard to find God in all of this mess, and looked for him to push me out of the hole and heal me and my wife. But I just couldn't find Him, because I wasn't seeing properly.

What I did find was that God wasn't going to fix this for me. And so I stopped expecting that. Instead, I think God was telling me to use those religious foundations to heal myself, but I needed to take the lead. Basically, that I could always fall back on Him when necessary, but that I had to find my own path forward in the journey. Even if it meant seeking secular support, like an IC or a trusted family member, or even a helpful website.

So, I don't think you should fault yourself for how you proceeded after the revelation of the first affair. For someone with a strong religious bias, that would be a natural place to turn.

[This message edited by Mr20Paws at 10:00 PM, Sunday, March 22nd]